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Posted by Toby 28 Mar 2008, 08:32

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OK, I've had a chance to read the rules, and on the whole, not bad. Simple enough, play in the spirit of the game, etc.
I am dissapointed to see the demise of Familiars, but I can understand why. They were a nightmare for a ref, and there won't be any refs anymore either.
I am a little dissapointed to see the Teleport range reduced, and spell casting on the run *cough* "brought into question *cough* !!

But, at least the spell is still there.

The main concern I have is the low number of Mana/Magic points. If I read it correctly, the max any spell caster can have is 10, which is effectively only 9 unless you fancy passing out. Considering that any self respecting mage would always keep enough for a Teleport out of trouble, that leaves 5 points. That's only 5 flame bolts, or a couple of other spells. About enough for 1 encounter. Not exactly impressive considering we are meant to be the greatest heros in the land.

OK, spell casters can recharge/channel. But do we want to sit down for half hour after each encounter, assuming we're on a ley line or whatever - actually, the rest might be welcome so that's not a bad idea!

In "old Mythlore Money", I had 34+ mind points, spells cost similar to cast, and I still ran out of points. (well, apart from a Teleport reserve!)

That's just my initial thoughts I thought I'd throw in for discussion.

Posted by The_Earl 28 Mar 2008, 17:09

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Dead by dawn!

Not sure about saving points for a teleport, but I see waht you mean. I am with you on upping the MP levels. We are about to do ANOTHER version of the rules, so will have a chat with the boys about it...

Thanks, all feedback welcome and acted upon if we can.

Posted by Toby 29 Mar 2008, 21:38

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Oh good, glad that suggestion was taken well. I didn't want it to come accross as "more for me please"! Substitue Teleport for "Big Blowy Up Spell" if you like.

OK, I have another comment/observation. If you are only allowed to spend experience points on your chosen class, that will make for a lot of cloned characters. If all characters have (only) 10 points to spend, and most classes you can only spend 10 (certainly a mage you can), then everyone in that class will have the same skills, and all the same spells. We've got 3 mages in our group that I am aware of (Montana, Elvana and Fob), who because they have nothing better to spend their points on will all have herb lore 4! I appreciate the idea is to keep it simple, so not sure how you want to handle that one.

Also, what about multi-classed characters?

Just a couple more thoughts for you to consider

Toby ...

By the way, I like the background story, the rise and fall of Fesh, etc. I can almost see the plot unfolding....

Posted by The_Earl 29 Mar 2008, 22:08

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Thanks again. I have done a fancy funkyeasy character generation thingy that works out how you spend your points. Will post this up soon. I think the rules don't make it too clear but each character class has at least 13 skill levels to spend their points on, the most is 15 or maybe 16 I think. Therefore I don't think the clone character arguement is valid.

Plus its all in the character anyway. Just because you have access to the same spells in no way means you are going to use them in the same way. Because you have sword use you are not going to fight in the same way!

Are you sure you are all going to be playing plain vanilla mages?

Anyways must dash, will post character generation thingy up soon and give Mark a kick for his comments...

Posted by Mark 30 Mar 2008, 10:46

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Hi Toby,

Oddly enough I had Steve and Ian (both fighters) arguing the toss over the fighters rules, after which they decided to have a go at my beloved Stalker classes - I guess everyone wants the class close to their hearts to be as good/bad as possible

On your observations:

The demise of the emergency teleport isn't such a bad thing in my opinion, a quick Teleport out of trouble makes Mages almost untouchable and I think it will encourage more strategy and a bit more caution. Besides, Teleport is a bloody rare and amazing skill and should be treated as such I think, it's not a substitute for running :p

As to the amount of MP's available to Mages - the Lands have changed as has the magic within it, (read the Bestiary for more info), and as a result the amount of magic has reduced. I still think there are more than enough spells to be fired off by the average Mage/Reeve before R&R is required and again it will encourage a bit of strategy. We really wanted to avoid the gattling-gun mages rattling off spells and still always having enough MP's in reserve to do serious damage.

But if you're planning on recharging after every encounter then the game is going to be slow! I suspect no-one would be happy with the warriors taking all their armour off to repair it after each fight or the Reeves going off into the undergrowth looking for herbs to heal everyone's HP's after each encounter? I think adventures should be dangerous and a process of attrition over a number of encounters rather than going into each new one with everything back to full.

I take your point about the zero MP's reducing the available MP's to 9, the same observation came up with Steve and Ian. However, you don't become unconcious until -1MP and I do kind of like the idea that there's a sacrifice to be made for that last MP if you really need to cast it - it'd be a good incentive to roleplaying - besides, you can still run with a migrane, you just might be groaning/screaming, (quietly no doubt), a little while you do it.

However, I will have a chat with Simon and maybe we could consider making a 3rd Mental Discipline increase available to some classes, taking it up to 12 maximum...we'll get back to you.

I also agree with Simon about the Zerox characters - it's all about how you play the character, besides, when you're at the top of your game with nothing else to 'buy' then you do end up with similar skills. I had a similar discussion with Steve and Ian with regards to the fighters not having anything else to 'buy' but I said the same thing then - having everything shouldn't be seen as a negative... besides, in most classes there are still more points available to buy than are available to spend - and remember this isn't a progressive system any more.

Everyone's had a reduction of one sort or another; Ycore's probably down to a 3rd of his original HP's, but then again he could take something like 54 single blows to the body before he fell over in the old system!!! I suspect the reason he's still alive is that monsters just got bored or knackered with hitting him so many times and just gave up or went off to sort out their RSI problems. But even so, Ycore's still not a character you'd want to go up against in the new system!

Like I said - the world has changed, we don't have refs any more and that means we have to keep track of ourselves which is no bad thing, but we will still have a game world balanced to reflect the fact that we are meant to be at 'the top of our games'.

I'm going through (hopefully) one last revision of the rules at the moment, should be out sometime next week, so keep the feedback coming in and see if any of the other players have time to cast their eye over the current version, all observations will be genuinely considered.

Cheers for taking the time to look through it, it's very much appreciated - I hope you understand why we've done what we have so far?

regards

Mark

Edited by Mark 30 Mar 2008 • Reason:

Posted by Ian 30 Mar 2008, 22:22

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I prefer to say we had a full and frank discussion over the fighters rules (just plain fighters tho!!) debating both positive and negative aspects which resulted in fighters becoming less hard! then we had a go at the sneaky thiefs and ne'er do wells!

Si, is it possible to have clarification on fighting styles, i.e stab save spears(please,please.....) use of sheilds etc

Posted by Mark 31 Mar 2008, 14:10

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It all hurts more than it used to.

You mean stab-safe spears as per Dumnonni and a bit of shield-barging? - over to you Si!

Posted by Ian 31 Mar 2008, 15:34

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yeah, tho being able to push away and use the shield as a weapon

Posted by The_Earl 31 Mar 2008, 20:14

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Stab safe spears are good as long as they are stab safe and people know what they are doing with them. Will have to make sure we conduct a proper safety brief.

Bit more concerned about shields, have personally seem damage done, even with a fully foam shield. Again with a proper safety brief this should not pose too many problems.

Listen to me Mr H&S, whatever next? putting padded ends on arrows or some s*ck nonsense...

As for the other issues, we are thrashing them out. Will let you know.

Posted by Mark 31 Mar 2008, 22:49

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It all hurts more than it used to.

OK, final offer - after further discussion with Simon (who's the one actually running these events after all), we've decided to increase the MP maximum by an average of 50% for all classes - this will put most Mage classes at 15 MP's (16 if you're an Elf) and most Reeve classes at 14 Mp's if they go for maximum increases.

We're really far too good to you you know that.

Hopefully the final final absolutely final and last completed system version will be available for download (with spangly covers for System and Bestiary) in the next few days. I'd recommend reading through it to check a number of changes including AC rules, skills availability, Spell costs, Channelling details, Weapon Mastery, Thrown weapons and a revised MP/HP chart.

Please - let this be the end...

Cheers

Mark

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	Comment on the Rules (Views 4,520) Posted by Toby 28 Mar 2008, 08:32
	Toby Offline Charlitan Posts: 19 Gender: Joined: 6 Jan 2008 Last Post: 23 Jun 2008 Last Online: 27 Jun 2008
	OK, I've had a chance to read the rules, and on the whole, not bad. Simple enough, play in the spirit of the game, etc. I am dissapointed to see the demise of Familiars, but I can understand why. They were a nightmare for a ref, and there won't be any refs anymore either. I am a little dissapointed to see the Teleport range reduced, and spell casting on the run cough "brought into question cough !! But, at least the spell is still there. The main concern I have is the low number of Mana/Magic points. If I read it correctly, the max any spell caster can have is 10, which is effectively only 9 unless you fancy passing out. Considering that any self respecting mage would always keep enough for a Teleport out of trouble, that leaves 5 points. That's only 5 flame bolts, or a couple of other spells. About enough for 1 encounter. Not exactly impressive considering we are meant to be the greatest heros in the land. OK, spell casters can recharge/channel. But do we want to sit down for half hour after each encounter, assuming we're on a ley line or whatever - actually, the rest might be welcome so that's not a bad idea! In "old Mythlore Money", I had 34+ mind points, spells cost similar to cast, and I still ran out of points. (well, apart from a Teleport reserve!) That's just my initial thoughts I thought I'd throw in for discussion.
	Posted by The_Earl 28 Mar 2008, 17:09
	The_Earl Administrator Offline The Dogs Posts: 319 Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Last Post: 26 Sep 2012 Last Online: 20 Jun 2013 Dead by dawn!
	Not sure about saving points for a teleport, but I see waht you mean. I am with you on upping the MP levels. We are about to do ANOTHER version of the rules, so will have a chat with the boys about it... Thanks, all feedback welcome and acted upon if we can.
	Posted by Toby 29 Mar 2008, 21:38
	Toby Offline Charlitan Posts: 19 Gender: Joined: 6 Jan 2008 Last Post: 23 Jun 2008 Last Online: 27 Jun 2008
	Oh good, glad that suggestion was taken well. I didn't want it to come accross as "more for me please"! Substitue Teleport for "Big Blowy Up Spell" if you like. OK, I have another comment/observation. If you are only allowed to spend experience points on your chosen class, that will make for a lot of cloned characters. If all characters have (only) 10 points to spend, and most classes you can only spend 10 (certainly a mage you can), then everyone in that class will have the same skills, and all the same spells. We've got 3 mages in our group that I am aware of (Montana, Elvana and Fob), who because they have nothing better to spend their points on will all have herb lore 4! I appreciate the idea is to keep it simple, so not sure how you want to handle that one. Also, what about multi-classed characters? Just a couple more thoughts for you to consider Toby ... By the way, I like the background story, the rise and fall of Fesh, etc. I can almost see the plot unfolding....
	Posted by The_Earl 29 Mar 2008, 22:08
	The_Earl Administrator Offline The Dogs Posts: 319 Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Last Post: 26 Sep 2012 Last Online: 20 Jun 2013 Dead by dawn!
	Thanks again. I have done a fancy funkyeasy character generation thingy that works out how you spend your points. Will post this up soon. I think the rules don't make it too clear but each character class has at least 13 skill levels to spend their points on, the most is 15 or maybe 16 I think. Therefore I don't think the clone character arguement is valid. Plus its all in the character anyway. Just because you have access to the same spells in no way means you are going to use them in the same way. Because you have sword use you are not going to fight in the same way! Are you sure you are all going to be playing plain vanilla mages? Anyways must dash, will post character generation thingy up soon and give Mark a kick for his comments...
	Posted by Mark 30 Mar 2008, 10:46
	Mark horror Offline The Dogs Posts: 141 Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Last Post: 30 Jan 2009 Last Online: 30 Jan 2009 It all hurts more than it used to.
	Hi Toby, Oddly enough I had Steve and Ian (both fighters) arguing the toss over the fighters rules, after which they decided to have a go at my beloved Stalker classes - I guess everyone wants the class close to their hearts to be as good/bad as possible On your observations: The demise of the emergency teleport isn't such a bad thing in my opinion, a quick Teleport out of trouble makes Mages almost untouchable and I think it will encourage more strategy and a bit more caution. Besides, Teleport is a bloody rare and amazing skill and should be treated as such I think, it's not a substitute for running :p As to the amount of MP's available to Mages - the Lands have changed as has the magic within it, (read the Bestiary for more info), and as a result the amount of magic has reduced. I still think there are more than enough spells to be fired off by the average Mage/Reeve before R&R is required and again it will encourage a bit of strategy. We really wanted to avoid the gattling-gun mages rattling off spells and still always having enough MP's in reserve to do serious damage. But if you're planning on recharging after every encounter then the game is going to be slow! I suspect no-one would be happy with the warriors taking all their armour off to repair it after each fight or the Reeves going off into the undergrowth looking for herbs to heal everyone's HP's after each encounter? I think adventures should be dangerous and a process of attrition over a number of encounters rather than going into each new one with everything back to full. I take your point about the zero MP's reducing the available MP's to 9, the same observation came up with Steve and Ian. However, you don't become unconcious until -1MP and I do kind of like the idea that there's a sacrifice to be made for that last MP if you really need to cast it - it'd be a good incentive to roleplaying - besides, you can still run with a migrane, you just might be groaning/screaming, (quietly no doubt), a little while you do it. However, I will have a chat with Simon and maybe we could consider making a 3rd Mental Discipline increase available to some classes, taking it up to 12 maximum...we'll get back to you. I also agree with Simon about the Zerox characters - it's all about how you play the character, besides, when you're at the top of your game with nothing else to 'buy' then you do end up with similar skills. I had a similar discussion with Steve and Ian with regards to the fighters not having anything else to 'buy' but I said the same thing then - having everything shouldn't be seen as a negative... besides, in most classes there are still more points available to buy than are available to spend - and remember this isn't a progressive system any more. Everyone's had a reduction of one sort or another; Ycore's probably down to a 3rd of his original HP's, but then again he could take something like 54 single blows to the body before he fell over in the old system!!! I suspect the reason he's still alive is that monsters just got bored or knackered with hitting him so many times and just gave up or went off to sort out their RSI problems. But even so, Ycore's still not a character you'd want to go up against in the new system! Like I said - the world has changed, we don't have refs any more and that means we have to keep track of ourselves which is no bad thing, but we will still have a game world balanced to reflect the fact that we are meant to be at 'the top of our games'. I'm going through (hopefully) one last revision of the rules at the moment, should be out sometime next week, so keep the feedback coming in and see if any of the other players have time to cast their eye over the current version, all observations will be genuinely considered. Cheers for taking the time to look through it, it's very much appreciated - I hope you understand why we've done what we have so far? regards Mark Edited by Mark 30 Mar 2008 • Reason:
	Posted by Ian 30 Mar 2008, 22:22
	Ian horror Offline Charlitan Posts: 15 Gender: Joined: 25 Mar 2008 Last Post: 20 Nov 2008 Last Online: 11 Mar 2009
	I prefer to say we had a full and frank discussion over the fighters rules (just plain fighters tho!!) debating both positive and negative aspects which resulted in fighters becoming less hard! then we had a go at the sneaky thiefs and ne'er do wells! Si, is it possible to have clarification on fighting styles, i.e stab save spears(please,please.....) use of sheilds etc
	Posted by Mark 31 Mar 2008, 14:10
	Mark horror Offline The Dogs Posts: 141 Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Last Post: 30 Jan 2009 Last Online: 30 Jan 2009 It all hurts more than it used to.
	You mean stab-safe spears as per Dumnonni and a bit of shield-barging? - over to you Si!
	Posted by Ian 31 Mar 2008, 15:34
	Ian horror Offline Charlitan Posts: 15 Gender: Joined: 25 Mar 2008 Last Post: 20 Nov 2008 Last Online: 11 Mar 2009
	yeah, tho being able to push away and use the shield as a weapon
	Posted by The_Earl 31 Mar 2008, 20:14
	The_Earl Administrator Offline The Dogs Posts: 319 Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Last Post: 26 Sep 2012 Last Online: 20 Jun 2013 Dead by dawn!
	Stab safe spears are good as long as they are stab safe and people know what they are doing with them. Will have to make sure we conduct a proper safety brief. Bit more concerned about shields, have personally seem damage done, even with a fully foam shield. Again with a proper safety brief this should not pose too many problems. Listen to me Mr H&S, whatever next? putting padded ends on arrows or some s*ck nonsense... As for the other issues, we are thrashing them out. Will let you know.
	Posted by Mark 31 Mar 2008, 22:49
	Mark horror Offline The Dogs Posts: 141 Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Last Post: 30 Jan 2009 Last Online: 30 Jan 2009 It all hurts more than it used to.
	OK, final offer - after further discussion with Simon (who's the one actually running these events after all), we've decided to increase the MP maximum by an average of 50% for all classes - this will put most Mage classes at 15 MP's (16 if you're an Elf) and most Reeve classes at 14 Mp's if they go for maximum increases. We're really far too good to you you know that. Hopefully the final final absolutely final and last completed system version will be available for download (with spangly covers for System and Bestiary) in the next few days. I'd recommend reading through it to check a number of changes including AC rules, skills availability, Spell costs, Channelling details, Weapon Mastery, Thrown weapons and a revised MP/HP chart. Please - let this be the end... Cheers Mark
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